Exclusive for WW II Ace Stories - Captain (res.) Kyosti Karhila interviewed in Westend, Espoo, Finland the 29th November 1998 by Ossi Juntunen. Part 1.

1. The beginning

- Captain Karhila, here is a copy of your introduction in an old magazine "Suomen Siivet" from the year 1971. The article states that "Kossi" is such a well-known person that he does not need any introduction" Unfortunately the situation is not so anymore... You were born in Rauma in the year 1921?

- Yes, but the family moved to Pori the next year, and it was there that I grew up.

- Can you tell something about your family background?

- My father was a very patriotic man, he had fought in the Liberation War as sergeant, and he created the spirit in the family. Patriotism was self-evident to me since my young days.

- When did you get interested in aviation?

- I received the impulse at the age of 10 years. There is a meadow by the Kokemaenjoki river flowing through Pori, which was flooded and frozen smooth every winter. Finnish Air Force would send an air show team that was based on the meadow. I watched the aerial stunts between the boards of the fence and feared for the pilots.

I started by building and flying model aircraft, then I became interested in gliders. At that time the local Civil Guard created an aero club, and all of my friends joined it. The leader of the club, Mr. Pentti Lipsanen, was one of the first in the country who had been in glider training in Poland. The National Aviation Association donated German glider kits to local Aero Clubs. Our club, too, assembled those kits. Everyone's hours spent in building the gliders were recorded, and if you had logged enough hours, you could apply for glider training. I was admitted in training in summer 1937 to Jamijarvi. During the one-month course I managed to get the A and B licences.

- What did your parents say about your hobby, did they think it was too dangerous for a boy?

- I had lost my mother as I was six, and my father died in summer 1938. As a patriotic man he would not have objected to his son becoming a pilot. My stepmother did not object, either. Flying was my own choice.

- What types of gliders did you build?

- Grunau 9 was the more primitive type, but Grunau Baby had a real faired-over fuselage with open cockpit.

- How did you become a real pilot?

- When I had logged enough hours in building gliders, I was entitled to apply for a real pilot course that took place in Joroinen in Summer 1939. The trainees were civilian schoolboys, but the aircraft, trainers, aircraft and management were provided by the Air Force. We flew Letov Smoliks, which were very good primary trainers, and VL Viimas., I logged 35 hours. The course was free, except a nominal charge for food and you had to pay for your trip from home. The trainees had to sign a contract of doing their compulsory military service in the Air Force.

2. Training in Air Force

- I completed my first course in flying in summer 1939, and in autumn Russia began to apply pressure on Finland. In early November I was asked whether I was prepared to volunteer for military service if needed, of course I was.

- Did you like school?

- Definitely not! I already had to repeat one class. When the reservists were mobilised, we Civil Guard soldiers were ordered to sentry duty. While I was doing sentry duty, my friends went to lessons on the other side of the fence. I thought that was quite funny.

After the war broke out on the 30th November 1939, I was drafted and commanded to Kauhava Air Base for training. I started my military service in the Independence Day of Finland, the 6th December 1939.

- So it was the War Pilot Course no. 1?

- Yes, we were 84 trainees, each of us had already received some training in power flying, and the course went on through the Winter War and was completed as the war ended. We started from the very beginning again, in some respect this double primary training was good for us. We flew such types as Viima, Tuisku, Saaski, Smolik etc. and some introductory flights with Klemm and Taylorcraft.

- In the first days of March 1940 thirty-five of us were selected for a secret mission: we were to be sent in Great Britain for more training and then ferrying Hawker Hurricanes to Finland. But the mission was aborted by the armistice on the 13th March. Everything was ready, we even had our civilian clothing sent from home.

Then our course was distributed for further training to fighter, bomber and reconnaisance squadrons. I was selected to become a fighter pilot .

- On what basis were the trainees divided into those groups ?

- Mainly by their own wishes, and also the instructors appraised our potential and skills in flying.

- Was anybody "washed out"?

- None from our course, because we all had some experience in flying , we had a good basis.

- How did the instructors treat you, was there any bullying?

- They had a very positive attitude. Afterwards they said our course had the best material of all courses : we had had initial training, we were volunteers, we were eager and idealistic. There was virtually no military training, just some rifle drill. Most of us had been in the Civil Guard, and so also had received a rudimentary infantry training

When we arrived at Parola to Training Squadron 35, the base was so congested. The flight I was posted to was transferred to Tyrvanto which was an airstrip on the ice of a lake. We operated from there until the ice began to melt. We were further trained , we flew Bristol Bulldogs for shooting at ground targets and towed flying target. I did well in shooting, I got 96 % hits on the ground target and 40% in the air target. That opened me the way to reserve officer training.

The odd thing was that we pilots were posted to a five-month infantry officer course, because the Air Force had no reserve officer training. The airmen started the course without basic infantry training, and felt ourselves fools in the terrain. The assistant instructors gave me a hard time as they found out my ignorance.

- What was the idea to post pilots to infantry officer training?

- There was no choice! The Air Force had no resources, no trainers. All those who could have been used to train us, were either flying in the front line squadrons or in Kauhava as instructors.

- Was that officer course of any use to you?

- My fitness improved thanks to skiing with bad military issue skis, also I learned to give commands and we were imbued with the spirit that we needed later. I barely completed the course, I did not think it was important to get good grades. I was not going to become a professional officer.

- Then you returned to the training squadron?

- Yes, we had been posted to officer training before our pilot's training had been completed. We flew the missing training flights, then we were considered ready for first line service.

- You were posted to Squadron 34?

- Yes, to Siikakangas, but that squadron was not the same in which I flew Messerschmitts some years later. The squadron was equipped with Fokker D.XXI's that had been used in the Winter War by Squadron 24. New pilots were given more training: formation flying, wingtip to wingtip until you really could do that. Aerobatics was practised, too. Shooting was the only thing missing - we did aiming training only. Then my 18 months of compulsory service were fulfilled, the war had ended in March. I was promoted to Ensign and sent home the same day, 4th June 1941.

- Did you have the Pilot's Emblem ("wings") already?

- No, I got that not until the war had started again. You needed 150 flying hours, and I had not logged more than 100 hours.

- What did you do from the5th to the19th June 1941?

- I was at home for a couple of weeks and then I was called up again. I was posted again to Squadron 32 at Siikakangas on the 20th June 1941

3. War starts

- On what basis were you posted to Squadron 32, or replacement pilots in general?

- In my case it was clear, I was trained in that unit.

The next day after my arrival we flew our Fokkers to Hyvinkaa, which became our first wartime base. Our task was to defend Helsinki, although it was far away, and Riihimaki railway crossing

But we did not spend a full fortnight in Hyvinkaa, we were transferred to Utti. I did fly some interception missions before that, but I did not see a single enemy. One of our flights shot down a couple of bombers east of Helsinki, however.

- What was your task?

- I was flying as wingman, senior officers were the leaders. My Flight Commander was Capt. Pate Berg, who had fought in the Winter War. He was a paternal man, willing to give advice to anybody.

Our task was to defend the town of Kotka and its harbour, and also the railway crossing at Kouvola. However, we found that our Fokkers were slow and totally obsolete. Even though we were sitting in our planes and took off in less than one minute after a scramble order, we were always late. The distance from Utti to Kotka (50km) is a long one for slow fighters. Our Squadron Leader was Major Ehrnrooth, a very popular commander. In the Winter War he had been the commander of the State Aircraft Factory test pilots in Tampere, and he had shot down two bombers using fighters that had been sent to Tampere for repairs. Ehrnrooth began to complain to the Air Force Headquarters that his squadron had equipment that did not allow him to fulfill his task. The result was that in mid-July we were re-equipped. Reconnaisance Squadrons 14 and 16 gave their Curtiss 75A Hawks to us and took our Fokkers.

- Why were the better equipment first given to Reconnaisance Squadrons?

- A good question! The new equipment was not immensely better, but the CU (Curtiss 75A) was 50km/h faster, having retractable undercarriage and it was better armed. The general performance - agility, climb - was better, we were satisfied. The Curtiss was manouverable and it was technically at the state of the art in those days, in our opinion. These fighters were German war booty from France and Norway, some were used, others had been captured in their packing cases. Initially some planes had Wasp engines (P&W Twin Wasp R-1830-S, 1065 hp) and some had Cyclone engines (Wright R1820-G205A, 1200 hp). Unfortunately the more powerful engine wore out extremely fast and they had to be replaced with Wasps.

- You fought your first battle with the CU, I believe?

- That's right, my first battle was on the 31st July 1941. Major Ehrnrooth came to the hut where on-duty pilots were in alert readiness, and asked for a volunteer wingman. He was going sight-seeing. He selected me, for some reason. We took off and crossed the front line, then the major took course to the air base of Suur-Merijoki, now in enemy hands, where he had served before the war. We were shot at by heavy AA, it was the first time I saw how large gray "barns" appeared in the sky. The oil temperature of my leader's engine went up (the very problem with the Cyclone engine!) and he had to decrease power. I wondered why he flew so slowly, and kept a sharp lookout around the horizon. Then I spotted two dots behind us, they were approaching. I kept watching, and then I found they were Russians. Since our radios were not working yet, I pushed the power lever and flew on the major's wing and made him the follow me -sign. Then I turned against the enemy: they were two Tchaikas, I-153's.

They were coming at us from higher altitude, we turned against them from lower altitude, heads-on and then everybody fired. That is the most unpleasant situation, because neither pilot knows beforehand which direction to dodge. If you do not dodge, you are going to be rammed, if you dodge too early, the enemy is going to get a chance to shoot at you. We approached each other, fired and of course the Russian did not dodge. I had to evade, the Tchaika nearly rammed me. Then I banked, the enemy banked, too, and again we shot at each other.

- The Tchaika was a quite manouverable fighter, wasn't it?

- It was very manouverable, and that is why that we made the second pass heads-on, but after the third turn it was already gaining on me. I realised that I was going to be in trouble, but I knew that when a CU dives, it accelerates faster and a Tchaika is not able to follow.

- You had enough altitude?

- About 2000 m. I pushed the stick and dived, then I looked behind to see if anybody was following. The Tchaika tried to follow, it even fired "salute shots" but was left behind. Then I returned to find my leader.

- What had happened to him?

- The major had engaged the second Tchaika and shot it down, thanks to his experience. I saw him coming and joined him on the wing. I began to think: this is serious, I have abandoned my leader in the face of enemy. We landed, I approached the major and attempted to report. He came to me with his arms outstretched and slapped me on shoulders, saying: "That's the way, you saved us both!" He said that he had no idea about those Russians, and he praised me to heaven.

- Do you feel you had been sufficiently trained when the war started?

- Yes, training was well thought of and executed. For me flying was like riding a bike, it was easy to learn. My flying style was "elastic", for example in a curve the FR easily went into a fast uncontrolled horizontal spin (due to asymmetric wingtip stall) if you pulled the stick too hard. I never did that by accident. Also estimating deflection when shooting, landing and so on were as if "built in". I must say that in a battle I never thought that now I am shooting at a pilot, I always fired at the aircraft. What happened to the pilot is another matter. But I never felt blind hate to the Russians, even though my slogan was " Dead Russian is the best Russian". My actions were considerate, not blind raging...

- Squadron 32 moved to Lappeenranta on the 31st July 1942. The Army had launched the offensive to retake the area ceded to Soviet Union in the Winter War. The Carelian Isthmus was covered by smoke, there were forest fires and the Russians burned everything they could before retreating.

4. First victory

- Here is the copy of my combat report for my first victory:

"Battle Report

Date: 10.8. (1941) Time 17.40. - 17.45

Location: South of Kirvu Altitude: 200 m (about)

Destroyed/damaged aircraft, number of them:

One I-16, I lost sight of the plane as I recovered from dive at very low altitude

Description :

On a patrol mission we met 2x I-16. In the following situation I fired at the other enemy heads-on, whereby he turned to the right. I slipped easily behind his tail, whereby he dived. I followed and shot at him. I saw my tracers hit him. I lost sight of the enemy when recovering from the dive, I pulled so hard that I blacked out. After recovery I did not see that plane again. When diving, it was puffing smoke.

Witnesses: Lt. Nurminen, Lance Cprl. Kajanto, Lance Cprl. Kirjonen

Remark: I-16 is prone to fast uncontrolled horizontal roll

Aircraft: CU-560 Signature: Ensign Karhila"

- I have a clear recollection of this incident. To begin with we met a two plane I-16 patrol, and the enemy leader opened fire already as he turned toward us. He had 20mm cannons, and the muzzle flashes were tremendous. After heads-on shooting we both turned for another heads-on pass. After that I managed to get behind his tail. The I-16 dived vertically, I followed. I got a chance to shoot and at the same moment saw that we were about to fly in the ground. I pulled the stick as hard as I could. Having recovered I did not see the I-16 anywhere. It was likely that he crashed on the ground, but I did not see that.

- CU-560 was my personal plane. I shot down 8 enemies with her, her total score was 18. The I-16 mentioned above was found later as our troops occupied the Isthmus. Ath the operational area of our squadron were found 40 enemy aircraft that had been shot down by fighters but not confirmed as victories. They were later either confirmed as victories basing on battle reports to the pilots who had shot at them or added to the Squadron's list.

There was another memorable incident on the 17th September 1941. Our flight approached Kronstadt, the flight commander Capt. Berg used to tease the AA gunners. This time we came too close: as the enemy opened fire, the very first heavy AA shell exploded between me and my leader. I was briefly blinded by the flash and the pressure wave buffeted my fighter upside down. When I recovered, I had been separated from our formation. I tried to turn to join them, but the AA fired a barrage in front of me. I had to dodge to the East and fly toward Leningrad in heavy AA fire. Finally I got out of their range and saw a lone aircraft approach from the direction of Leningrad. When it got closer I recognised it as a MiG-3. The pilot must have believed I was one of theirs, because I was approaching from the West and alone. I got close, attacked and shot him down at Siestarjoki (Syestroretsk). I returned to the base but I did not have a witness to my victory. Then we were informed that an Army observation post had seen an aircraft crash at Siestarjoki at the time I had reported...

Our squadron moved to Suulajarvi on the 23rd September 1941. The base had been built in 1940 by Russians, and it was sand-covered and terribly dusty. The pilots took over the single surviving private farmhouse near the airfield, and the owners of the house moved in the sauna. We had a prisoner of war as our servant. He swept the floor, chopped the firewood and heated the oven. He was an Ingermanlandian (ethnic Finn) and we trusted him completely. Our pistol holsters were hanging on pegs on the wall of the house, but nothing happened.

On the 31st of May 1942 the squadron moved to Nurmoila, in Olonez (eastern coast of Lake Ladoga).

5. In Nurmoila

In Nurmoila we were at first lodged in Russian-built dugouts that leaked during rain, then most of us built our own dugouts of logs in a hillside. Our dugout was fine, we even had an open fireplace and not only the standard stove.

On the 21st August 1942 a four-plane CU division was escorting a Fokker C.X (FK) photo-reconnoitring at the mouth of the river Svir. I was one of the escorts, I was flying behind the FK somewhat higher. I saw a single I-16 dive at the FK from a high altitude. I turned at him and fired at a long range so that he would not disturb the FK, and managed to get behind his tail. We were flying at 20m as I fired again and the I-16 caught fire. The pilot bailed out and disappeared in the forest, his parachute did not open. His fighter crashed at the edge of a bog and exploded into a ball of fire.

The enemy used to send Pe-2 bombers to reconnoitre the Eastern coast of Lake Ladoga so that the Pe would fly to NW over the lake on the inbound leg. Our air surveillance could report only buzzing. Then the enemy turned right and flew over the coast road, making observations, and finally examined our base at Nurmoila. The Pe-2 was such a fast plane that the CU could not catch it in level flight.

Our tactic was to send a couple of CU's to a high altitude as buzzing was observed over the Ladoga, and the pilots waited for the recce Pe-2. With luck, a CU attacking from above could catch up with a Pe-2 thanks to diving speed and had a chance to shoot at him twice: once when approaching from above and the second time when pulling up. In this way I managed to surprise a lone Pe-2 on the 9th February 1943. My bullets hit a fuel line in the cockpit area, a fire broke out in the bomber cockpit and two men bailed out. The Pe-2 crashed in a bog. I circled the enemy airmen descending down in their parachutes and saw how one of them descended faster than the other. A smouldering fire consumed the dome of his chute, the opening in the top grew bigger and bigger. There were flames in his clothing, too, and he tried to put the fire out by slapping with his hands until he went limp and sagged against his harness. There was an Army depot nearby, and the soldiers had seen the shooting. They took the surviving man prisoner.

Soon I was asked whether I was interested in meeting the man I shot down, of course I wanted to see what he looked like. I was taken to a command post where the prisoner was being interrogated, a colonel-lieutenant was the interpreter. As we were introduced to each other, the Russian, whose name I do not remember, refused to believe that he had been shot down by a schoolboy... I was given a piece of silk from the dead airman's chute. We cut it up into scarves for the flight's pilots, although we usually did not wear them.

6. Flying Messerschmitt 109

- You had problems in getting posted as a Messerschmitt pilot, I have learned?

- Yes indeed. I was ferrying a CU after major overhaul from the Aircraft Factory to Nurmoila in March 1943 as I stopped at Utti to visit some friends. One flight of the new Squadron 34 was based there, and the Squadron Leader, Major Luukkanen told me that he had received orders of my transfer to his squadron. He wished me welcome and wanted to know when I would come.

- I was excited as I continued my flight to Nurmoila. I was waiting for the transfer order, but none was received: the new Squadron Leader, Major Bremer refused to give up me and Lt. Ruotsila. Then a friend send an angry teletype message posing as the Air Force H.Q., enquring why the two pilots were delaying: the training schedule would be upset. Major Bremer was startled by the message and did not verify it. The same day we travelled to Utti, arriving there in a morning. We read the pilot's manual while eating our breakfast, then we flew the introductory flight as soon as possible. The reason was this: If Bremer had demanded us back to his squadron, Luukkanen could have told him that the training is so far advanced that it is too late to interrupt.

- Did you have any problems with the Me 109?

- None whatsoever.

- In his memoir Luukkanen told that Ehrnrooth was the best man to lead the Squadron 34, but he was killed in a flying accident , can you comment on that?

- If Major O.Ehrnrooth had been destined to survive, he would have one day been the Commander of the Air Force. But on the 27th March 1943 he and Major Larjo, famous for his aerobatics, got into an argument about flying. Ehrnrooth took off in a VL Pyry (advanced trainer) to show some aerobatics, and flying at treetops an accident took place... It was a totally needless death. Even though the Pyry was difficult to fly, Ehrnrooth was perfectly familiar with it, having himself test-flown the prototype.

- You were posted in the Squdron no. 30 on the 15th March 1944?

- The entire 2nd flight of our squadron, men and planes, was transferred to Squadron 30 to Malmi to defend Helsinki. Up to that date I had been writing in my diary daily, but now nothing happened, it was only: on duty or: bad weather. I quit writing and after things started happening in June 1944 I did not have any time over for writing.

- You returned to the squadron 34 on the 15th June 1944?

- The Russian offensive had begun and the entire flight was transferred to Lappeenranta to join the old squadron. - In the beginning I had problems with my weapons. My guns jammed in battle after a few shots, that was most annoying. Others, too, had similar problems but I had more of them than anybody because I mostly flew the same fighter. Finally it was found out that my guns were loaded with ammunition that had electric primers and the 20mm belt links were of a wrong type.

- You were posted to Squadron 24 on the 30th June 1944?

- I had just returned from mission as Major Luukkanen sent for me. He told me that Hasse Wind had been wounded and I was to replace him as the commander of the 3rd Flight of Squadron 24. I wondered why me, because there were cadre officers available. So I packed my kit and went to report to Major Karhunen , the Squadron leader of the 24th.

- I was waiting for him in the Flight control building as I saw a lost-looking mechanic coming my way. I asked him what the matter was. He told me that the 3rd flight had received replacement Messerschmitts, one of which had 20mm wing-mounted cannons. Because the flight had lost the commander, nobody could decide whether to remove the guns or leave them on. I told the mechanic to wait for a moment, soon things would be settled.

- As soon as Major Karhunen had finished his business, I reported to him for my new command. Then I told him that there was a mechanic worrying about a MT's wing cannons, and that I wanted to have that MT as it was as my personal plane. Karhunen took a long look at me and asked whether I was aware that such a MT was heavier, slower and worse in climb and turn? I admitted that I knew all that, but I wanted the three cannons nevertheless. I got my way. Now I had firepower and my flight stayed in formation because I had the slowest plane.

- I learned to fly with the "Cannon-Mersu" (MT-461). I found that when fighter pilots got in a battle, they usually applied full power and then began to turn. In the same situation I used to decrease power, and with lower speed was able to turn equally well. I shot down at least one Mustang (on 4th July 1944) in turning fight. I was hanging behind one, but I could not get enough deflection. Then the pilot made an error: he pulled too much, and stalling, had to loosen his turn. That gave me the chance of getting deflection and shooting him down. It was not impossible to dogfight flying a three-cannon Messerschmitt.

- Major Karhunen was not flying any more then?

- No, he wasn't. He had quit flying soon after receiving the Mannerheim Cross and becoming the leader of the 24th Squadron after Col.-Lt. Magnusson. A Squadron Leader did not have to fly, though Major Luukkanen flew as much as he could.

- Did this have any effect on his pilots?

- Maybe at the time he quit flying, because his men did not know the reasons for this, they probably do not know it today. Karhunen was a good commander, who got well along with his men, regardless their rank.

- As I was posted to Squadron 24 I was surprised to find out how unified a team the pilots were. Many of the men had been flying together since the Winter War, whereas Squadron 34 had been created with pilots selected from the squadrons 24, 26, 28 and 32. The result was that the squadron initially was not uniform, but consisted of groups of pilots - there were CU-men, Fiat-men, BW-men... Yet we were striving for unity.

- You were once more posted to Squadron 30 to protect Helsinki on the 21st July 1944?

- That is right, all of a sudden I was just posted back to Malmi. That was idiotic in my opinion: the battle was going on. But I had to leave, and that was the end of fighting for me. Nothing was going on in Helsinki. Also my last victory (no.34) remained unconfirmed because I was not there to look after the paperwork. That is the reason why my official score is 33.

- What is the strongest image in your mind from Summer 1944?

- Our fighting spirit which was strong. Some times I saw hundreds of enemy planes in the air at one time, bombers and escort fighters. I felt that even if all the fighters of the Finnish Air Force were sent against them in one formation, we would have been overwhelmed. Also the escort missions covering our bombers remain clear in my memory, because our success rate was 100%.

[ Continue interview - Part 2 ]

1999.03.08, © WW II Ace Stories.